Transcript of Judy Holliday's Testimony - Page 13
Mr. Arens: Did you know that Mr. Hammer, who was a member of this one group, was a member of the Communist Party?
Miss Holliday: No. Alvin Hammer?
Mr. Arens: Yes. Do you know of it now?
Miss Holliday: Well, if you say it's true, I know it.
Mr. Arens: Have not all these investigators that you have employed and these lawyers to run down your Communist-front affiliations and your associations Communists, disclosed to you that Mr. Hammer was a member of the Communist Party and that in 1945 he held Communist Party book No. 11810?
Miss Holliday: No.
Mr. Arens: They have not told you about it?
Miss Holliday: They never unearthed that.
Senator Watkins: Did you tell them about the suspicion you had of this group that had been named?
Miss Holliday: I had no suspicions.
Senator Watkins: None whatever?
Miss Holliday: Absolutely none. If he was a Communist he certainly was peculiar about it, because we performed for war benefits before Russia got into the war, and if he was a Communist, why did he do it?
Senator Watkins: Always keep in good standing because you are always trying to make, the group were always trying to get ahead, and they could not get ahead unless they had popularity. You can see if he had come out and refused to give these public benefits and only gone to those that were of the Red or radical type, he would not have been popular in this country. In other words, to make any progress in your profession this group would naturally have to give lip service to this country and its institutions.
Mr. Arens: What is it that you abhor about communism?
Miss Holliday: I hate the idea that you are dictated to in what should be the freedom of your own life; that you are told how to think and what to think and that you are policed in your thoughts. I hate the idea that they try to make everybody like everybody else and that the state comes first and that the individual doesn't matter for anything.
Mr. Arens: How about the materialistic philosophy of communism?
Miss Holliday: I don't know what you mean.
Mr. Arens: Do you believe in God?
Miss Holliday: Yes; I do.
Senator Watkins: Are you a member of a church?
Miss Holliday: No.
Mr. Rifkind: May I ask one thing?
Senator Watkins: If you want to suggest?
Mr. Rifkind: To make an inquiry if I may.
Senator Watkins: Yes.
Mr. Rifkind: We have searched for the kind of ad Mr. Arens suggests that she supported for the indictment of the Hollywood Ten. We have not uncovered any such ad. Mr. Arens refers to it as an existing fact, and we do not want to challenge it, but I would like to see it.
Mr. Arens: The witness has given no record here with reference to her protest or attitude with respect to the trial of the Communists from Hollywood.
Mr. Rifkind: I am aware of that.
Miss Holliday: I mentioned to you before that in my mind it was associated with resentment against the employers, the moving-picture studios. I don't know what it was that I signed the ad to. I don't know whether it was after they were indicted or not. I assume that since you said so it was true.
Mr. Arens: You are not suggesting that I made this up, are you?
Miss Holliday: No, I am not, but a great deal of the material that you have there has been gathered from sources which have been proven to be not reliable. For instance, last summer the Catholic War Veterans said, "You are on record as having put your name on a petition June 26 for the" -- something or other dated June 26, New York. I was Rhode Island the entire month of June, so that I knew was not true. So I said, "Will you please show me my signature?" No, they wouldn't do that. So that was not true. Another thing they said to me, "You were seen walking in the vicinity of the Committee for Alternative Measures," something like that, a name I don't remember, which has its location in the Village. The fact that I live in the Village meant nothing. This was the damning evidence against me. I know that some of the evidence that has been brought up has been hearsay, it simply has no basis in fact. Some of it has, and some of it hasn't, and I am not sure just which is which sometimes.
Senator Watkins: Now, Miss Holliday, one of the reasons we have executive sessions is that we try to, in making an investigation, screen out a lot of the so-called evidence that is so flimsy that it should not ever be presented and unless there is substantial evidence indicating activity that might be harmful, we do not make these records these records public. But if there is, as we have found for instance in this public employees union, United Public Workers, we definitely found that the Communists were practically in control of that union, and of course it is a dangerous thing because they have public employees and they even refuse to give us the names of the members of the union who worked for the United States Government. Here they are. Your security and my security may depend on some of these things, and finding out the truth. So we are trying as much as we possibly can to avoid unnecessarily injuring a person, yet after all the good of the country as a whole must prevail. So we have a hearing. If we had had this hearing in public, you know what would have happened. If we had let that happen, you would have had television and many other things.
Miss Holliday: That would have been my last appearance.
Senator Watkins: We are trying to protect people and their rights and not doing any more damage than has to be done.
Miss Holliday: I appreciate that enormously.
Senator Watkins: We have had people here, some very prominent and in many cases we have not given the information out, and in others we have given it out because the testimony indicated their interest in the subversive organizations. That is our unpleasant duty. We do not like to quiz you. At least we have tried to get your story. You are not the only one that will be brought in or has been brought in. We have brought in many. That is a job, unpleasant as it is. Personally, I would much rather find that everybody we brought in here was completely innocent and that we could find that there was not any subversive elements in this country trying to overthrow it, and I would sleep much better, and I would feel that the future of this country was going to be much happier and prosperous. I would be one that would be very happy if the committee could find that all of these charges were untrue. I wanted you to know that we do not have the same procedures as you would find in a court because you are not on trial. We try to preserve some of the procedures at least of a court or a legal inquiry in trying to get the facts. You may be able to throw a little light on something. People who have been using your name as a prominent character, we want to know that because we do not want you to be deceived.
Miss Holliday: In my position it will never happen again because I have certainly learned, and I am sure other people have learned. A good story from now on has to be investigated. It is no longer on the face value of the story or who is connected with it, but it came a little late.
Senator Watkins: It is unfortunate in a way that you did have some associations and that your name was used. Whether you permitted it to be used or not, I am not passing on it. I say it is very unfortunate, but we are not deliberately going out of our way to hurt. I do not know whether this will ever be made public. I am not the one to decide; it will be the full committee. It may be or it may be not, but we try at least to keep all of those things in the executive session a matter of confidence unless there is some strong evidence indicating that some subversive influence has been working that will be against the public interest or that there is some compelling reason for releasing the testimony.
Mr. Rifkind: May I thank you, Senator, for your courtesy and I hope that I have not transgressed too frequently.
Mr. Arens: Mr. Chairman, I respectfully suggest that the witness be released from the subpena.
Senator Watkins: So ordered.
Mr. Rifkind: Mr. Chairman, is it permissible for me to obtain a copy of this transcript?
Mr. Arens: You may study a copy of it as her counsel at our office, but it has been our policy not to let a copy go out of the office.
Senator Watkins: It would not be executive any longer. If it got out and you had a copy you would be accused.
Mr. Rifkind: I shall certainly take advantage of the opportunity to come to the office.
Senator Watkins: We take it that you are going to observe the same rules; you are not going to release anything about this?
Miss Holliday: Release anything? I would rather die.
Senator Watkins: Your statement there, we have had witnesses come in and make a statement and then release it.
Miss Holliday: I would be digging my own grave.
(Whereupon, at 1:10 p.m., the subcommittee recessed subject to the call of the Chair.)
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